How do other guilds manage raids into new content?
Take ICC for an example - I know that a good many guilds have progressed a lot further into ICC than More Than Raids have. I guess My need to be "Inclusionary" means that we get there in the end but that the end is a long long way off. And I know that this approach has begun to frustrate a good many guildies who could progress a lot further a lot faster if we were a tad more selective about who got the sought after roles in new content.
As an example: I have one Pally tank in guild who is my Hero - he can Maintank or Offtank or heal anything and what the pally cant do (Dps) he has a hunter that is equally as competant, he is happy to fill what-ever role we need, he is intuitive, patient, reliable, consistent and has initiative too. You ask him to do something once and it gets done. Sometimes you dont even need to ask and it still happens. And then I have a couple of tanks in guild - who are certainly sufficiently geared to be doing ICC - today they can do so exceptionally - tomorrow is anybodies guess. They will forget to turn the boss away from the raid, when OTÃng they will miss the adds in the raid, they are as likely to be chitchatting in vent or sending private whispers while the raid is quietly wiping around them. Do I deny the second kind of tank the opportunity to improve because I have such an exceptional tank? Or do I take them along and hope that today is one of the good days? How do you tell someone you are fond of that they are inconsistent and unreliable and therefore a liability to challenging raiding?
And what about the heals? As mentioned previously we do have a shortage of MT heals in guild and so often it will be the role of a druid to stand in. I love druids and think that they are often under rated in raids. When played well they can be as successful as tank heals as they can for raid heals.
I have a friend who we often have along as a guest in guild runs because he is an old ingame friend and is somewhat of an honorary guildie. He is a Druid heals and I would give him a spot in ANY raid regardless. This friend is in gear well below that of many of my guildies and yet you can be sure if it is possible for ANY druid to keep the target alive - he will do it. He knows how to play his toon, he knows wipes happen yet he can keep deadmen walking. And then in guild - I have druid healers who are extremly well geared, they can manage ICC healing when things arent turning to custard and they are mostly raid aware. But they dont utilise some of the best heals they have for those custard moments, they dont react to the unexpected well and in some cases they are not great at following instructions or showing iniative. (If the tank healer dies I shouldnt have to ask for the raid heals to pick up the tank heals until a rez is called for - it should be automatic) Do I take the friend whom I know will ensure success or do I take one of the less able druids and hope we have no custard moments?
And DPS.. ahh so many types of DPS.. Ranged Vs Melee - Priests, Hunters, Rogues, Pallies, Druids, DKs, Mages, Warlocks, Shaman, Warriors- There are a few people in guild I KNOW I can rely on 100%. We have our Freak hunter, we have hunters who are nipping at his heels (Ok maybe not nipping, being that hes a freak but they certainly hold their own). We have an up and coming Paladin who exceeds his gear and a cute little rogue who can fill his role well and although he makes me nervous with his shifty eyes he makes me giggle too. We certainly have plenty of capable dps. Yes they may die sometimes but I know they are giving their best. I know that they are the best. I know I dont have to point out the obvious to them I know they work well together and I know that they are happy to stick with it until we get it with patience and good humour. But then how do i pick which 5 dps get the runs? Is it better to have a core group that gel together and work on learning the fights together or do I rotate the teams so that everyone who is capable gets an opportunity, thus keeping the masses happy at the expense of group melding.
I sought out advice from others and came to the conclusion that we would take two weeks where the Top raiders would be given every opportunity to progress as far as possible. It is by invite only to the raid group and it is based on ability, performace, and consistency. The capables run - At the end of the two weeks we will then take all people who have been assessed by opt-in as ready and show them as much as we can for 3 weeks -the up and comings run - at the end of the 3 week period we will then hopefully have two ten man raid groups. One as the push on thru group and one as the follow on through group.Seemed like a good solution to me at the time. Ahhh hindsight is a wonderful thing.
We are one week into the 3 step 5 week programme and the wheels are beginning to wobble. Despite posting full details on the forum about the changes to ICC raiding - last night there were discussions in guild chat to the effect of "Oh i missed the ICC run - didnt know it was on" and "Any free spots" to which I responded its by invite only " How do i get an invite?" you log into and read the forums! So whilst managing the inability of people to visit the forums and the expectations of some that they should get an invite despite the fact they arent ready or able I also have to manage the group that is raiding and able.
Thursday night was the first night we went in this week - it went well - All new content to the warrior who I had tanking with a pally. Our aforementioned hero is tank healing with a priest and a druid on raidheals. We downed the first four bosses and completed the weekly without any issues. Woot - things are looking good and I made the right decision...
So we continued the run on Sunday night as many were not going to be able to attend on the saturday night. Sunday night comes around and our freak hunter isnt able to attend due to RL commitments - but our Jester DK is and steps in happily for the freak hunter. We are up to Festergut and Rotface and head in clearing the respawned trash as we go - including Precious and Stinky. OMG I got an upgrade neckpiece on trash too *faint* Everyones in good spirits recalling our pleasing prior foray. We front up to Rotface, warrior tanking the boss, pally on adds - WIPE. We release, repair, wipe, release, repair, wipe.x 20+ more times. Trying different variations of which Pally does the heals and which does the adds - the closest we get is to 10% left.
We decide to take a moment and go and try some wipes on Festergut instead for variety. We go in and wipe due to the spores strat being new to some people. We release, buff up etc and go in and down him 2 seconds AFTER he enrages - hows that for taking it to the wire.
So now we are feeling a little better about things and go back to Rotface. WIPE - by this time one of our Pally tanks steps out as had to work in a few hours. We bring in Undergeared but impressive Pally to DPS put DK on adds and leave Warrior on boss. Wipe - Poor Dk hadnt been prepared to be thrown into tanking and having never done these adds didnt know how best to manage them. Wego back in and wipe again - Dk says "ok got it now guys" and then whilst kiting adds he helps with instructions to our druid who herself was new here and didnt really get the whole thing. His calm kind words of instruction and encouragement held it all together and we down that ugly bugger! The feeling of elation and commaraderie on vent and in raid chat was electric - it took us over 5 hours to get that ONE boss to give in to us... but the success was so very very sweet when we finally did. I admire the tenancity and stickability of those who kept throwing themselves against the failures in the belief that we could get it. These are the people I WANT to raid with - they didnt give up - they saw it through until we had that success under our belt and they didnt point fingers or lay blame. They found solutions to the problems we were having. They are true Progression Raiders and they really are people who raiding with is FUN.
So how do I manage the desires of all the other guildies who want to run ICC? The ones who will have to leave an hour into the raid or who "Dont have gold for repairs" or "Dont want to wipe all the time" or expect ICC to be cleared and the radi completed 2 hours after it starts? They dont have that stick-ability- that understanding of progression nor do they have a consideration of much else other than what they want......
Some times being a GM is a lose-lose situation!
Hi Kat, Daxwarmonger (ages buddy) here. Enjoy reading your posts and comments, rants, and info. Putting our guild together fresh I hope to enjoy the thrills and spills of the game with a few less headaches. But never-the-less they will always occur. See ya online.
ReplyDeleteAs per your disclaimer;
ReplyDeletehttp://dwarfbabble.blogspot.com/2010/03/more-than-raids.html"
that time might have come.
From a tanks point of view, one is now on a pedastal (along with the freak and the joker) and the others have been damned with faint praise or ommision. As you've just basically said there's only one competent ICC tank, the chances are all of your tanks bar said hero are going to be a little offside whether you meant to do that or not. (assuming they read this, otherwise, they've been put down in the eyes of others who read this and they're oblivious to it)
Did my 1 perceived mistake OT'ing on the 2nd wipe (trying to save somone from certain death and a wipe) and got me put on heals put me in the sin bin? I don't know, possibly by this post. Sure didn't cause the other 19+ wipes though.
I also have some inside mail that you don't on how you ended up taking down that boss. It was unconventional, but it appeared to work. Not exactly a 'go to strat' though.
Hopefully I'm not one of the "Dont want to wipe all the time" people, but that said 5hrs plus of 20+ wipes on one boss isn't progression unless you're learning or improving. I was only there for the first 17+ wipes as I had to be at work 6 hours later but there wasn't a lot of learning going on.
I appreciate this is your blog, but this one post could be read as taking cheap shots at your guild for on high with no chance for discussion, especially as the guild/realm are public. If you sum it up you basically said you've got 5 people you can rely on 100% (tank/heals god, tree and 3 dps) and the rest, not so much.
And while the picture for this post is amusing, its hardly motivational for guildies reading it.
My desire to log in this week has somewhat diminished due to this post.
Just a few things to consider.
B
Hey Bell,
ReplyDeleteThis post is about contrasts and how does one choose between so many who want to run ICC.. By putting one tank on a "Pedastal" doesnt mean that there arent a half dozen up there with him that are also my heroes..(And the reason tanks are heroes is because it is something i could never be even half good at - mellee terrifies me and i suck at it big time - so those who can and choose to do it are heroes to me)
I am unsure of the perceived mistake you refer to in the post - you wernt sinbinned or being punished when i asked you to heal - i was trying to look for solutions and alternatives as a means to getting him down - being asked to heal isnt and shouldnt ever be considered a punishment - tanks, dps and heals are all imperative to the success of the raid.
You are and have always been our MT. But following prior burnout by over working you and your student as the only guild tanks when we started out I have tried to give you guys the opportunity to do other things in raids as well as give other tanks the opportunity to progress to take the pressure off you guys.
When I was referring to the dont want to wipe all the time people i was actually talking about bailing on a group after 3-4 wipes. I was not referring to you needing to go for work in a few hours.
And you and I both know there arent only 5 people I can rely on - there are many - and you have always been one of them. Im sorry if i have caused you or anyone any offence by the post but it wasnt intended to be seen as a who's who of the guild ( which it certainly isnt) it was suppose to be a "how the hell do i manage the ICC raiding content" post.
I look forward to the opportunity to discuss with you tonight.
A guildie of mine just recently found your blog, and suggested this might be something of interest for our guild officers. You see, we are also a "casual" raiding guild, that likes to keep things as easy going as possible. But we recently have found ourselves in your shoes as well. How can we progress, if we are trying to include as many guildies as we can?
ReplyDeleteThe only solution we have come up with thus far, is to start making it a bit more selective. If this works, I will let you know how well, etc. I know its hard to play the balancing act of true progression in 10 and 25 man setting, but keeping it social and casual.
But I ramble on. Heh, just wanted to let you know you aren't alone in the frustration of progression!
Banethiel, from Silver Hand (US server)
First off, I know you mentioned being a casual social rading guild, but seriously slap all the people who ever say to you 'i didn't know'. They should not have to spoon fed if you have a guild website. (I regularly have to slap a few from my guild)
ReplyDeleteFestergut and Rotface are very tough fights although we have cleared that wing. What i would say to you is the guys who will battle through thick and thin for several hrs wiping are the ones you need to keep. But you need to gear them up / encourage them to gear up asap. Fester is an out and out dps race.
As for this:-
"So how do I manage the desires of all the other guildies who want to run ICC? The ones who will have to leave an hour into the raid or who "Dont have gold for repairs" or "Dont want to wipe all the time" or expect ICC to be cleared and the radi completed 2 hours after it starts? They dont have that stick-ability- that understanding of progression nor do they have a consideration of much else other than what they want......"
Spell things out to everyone, and if needs be, dont let them raid. The Guild comes before the member.
I co lead Aurora's Promise on Ravenholdt EU, its a horrible horrible job at times, but what makes it worth while is when we all come together, work as a team united and kill bosses. On Sunday night after 4 days (over 2 weeks) we finally downed the professor.
It gets very tough trying to juggle friends, socials and people who want to raid and i feel you're pain, all i try and do is constantly talk though things with the guys both on our website and in vent most days.
People have to realise that casual doesn't mean leaving after an hr, or one shotting everything. And tbh, i'd still run totc if the guilds not cleared it as well as starting ICC.
I've enjoyed you're posts, keep smiling. Tru
Thanks for the input guys - It is somewhat reassuring to know im not the only one with this dilema and hearing how others deal with it helps
ReplyDeleteHi Cat, I'm Delfi and I am GM of Auroras Promise EU Ravenholdt. My partner Truwellan (who posted above) showed me this post your blog and I was staggered by how similar our situations are. I read the rest of your posts and all of them ring a proverbial bell with me, some ring a clacksen right by my head :)
ReplyDeleteWith regards to your progression raiding, what we have done in AP is try to keep 1 solid 10 man ICC team that usually consists of the same a-list raiding people week in and week out. Anything that isn't progression content i.e ICC or ToTGC is fair game for anyone to sign up. As for our 10 man ICC, we have some 'back up' people who will come if we are short, but generally it's the same set of people which has allowed a great sense of 'team' and allowed fair progress through the current content.
Our solid 10 man is generally full of the same people who contribute to the guild in other multiple ways and make active use of the website (yeah, we have that problem too). These people are the 'core' of the guild. The main issue as you say is everyone else, the people who don't sign up to raids but expect a spot anyway, the people who CAN'T sign up for various reasons but maybe deserve a spot, the undergeared but willing and the people full of the enthusiam, but lacking in the skillz.
To be honest I don't have the answer because as is every GM's mantra and burden 'You can't please everyone.' The only thing you can do is try and balance what is best for the guild as a whole, whilst trying to stay true to your personal ethos of what the guild was built for.
I will be following your blog from now on and may also start one of my own as you have inspired me.